Business & Beyond with Jeff Grout

Jeff Grout is a renown keynote business speaker, author , interviewer and conference Chair person. I wanted to get down & dirty and understand what makes Jeff's speeches impactful,  his route to writing 8 books, growing a recruitment business to becoming a father at 47 years old. 

With extensive experience and expertise in the business world, Jeff is is sought after to inspire, educate, and motivate audiences at conferences, business events and work with leaders. 

Lean & listen to some of Jeff's insightful tips. 

https://www.jeffgrout.com/

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Transcript

  00:00

Hi, Jeff, it's so great to have you on my podcast. And I feel so honoured for you to be interviewed by me was my pleasure. Oh, thank you. I think it's just saying to my listeners, I've known Jeff a long time. But we've recently reconnected because he commented me on some lovely photographs on Facebook that I had done. And actually, we've known each other properly since 2003. Jeff is, as I've just said, in my introduction, is a fantastic author, keynote speaker, conference chairman and interviewer, he really talks about business in a way that's pretty interesting. And I want to just delve deep, a little bit more with Jeff, but his life and how he got to that point. So I think your life has been full of interesting twists and turns that shaped an amazingly colourful one jet that I want to dive into. So you started your life in recruitment? How does it compare, really, to what is going on in the marketplace today? Oh,

00:56

it's a very tight employment marketplace. This is followed on from probably the best two years that recruiters have ever known, whereby there was a huge demand for skilled labour. You know, people had plenty of opportunities and whatever, but it's now tightened up quite considerably. And I suspect, it may change once we get our next General Election whenever that might be. Okay,

01:22

that's interesting. You said it, it may change. But what do you think about the onset of AI? Number one, and the algorithms that are sort of just flooding? You know, the market in terms of applications? Because a lot of people aren't happy? No.

01:37

I mean, certainly the whole process has become largely sanitised. We've currently got my nephew staying with us. And his prime focus is to try and find a job. And of course, he's been looking for some time. But he's always directed towards portals of some kind, there's been very, very little human interaction. And the reality is, is that there's some very good people out there, that employers are missing, because they've automated the recruitment process to such an extent that it doesn't allow for those people who may not be the most academically gifted, but can bring something else. Yeah. And

02:17

it's funny, we were having a conversation about this on Saturday, because one of my friends is a cultural intelligence expert. And what he was talking about was what recruiters going for cameo levels though. GCSEs rather shows my age, how many GCSEs A Levels University, What school did you go to, etc, etc. What do you think of blind interviews? Wouldn't that be fantastic that you didn't see anything? Absolutely.

02:41

I got a great because ultimately, you know, people whilst they weren't admitted, they may not be racist, or sexist, or whatever. But sometimes they're fascistic, or you they weren't here to hire someone because of the way they're dressed. And obviously, quite ludicrous.

02:55

I really relate to that. And I'll tell you, it was funny, Jeff, because for years, I did not put my picture on LinkedIn, because I thought I'd be discriminated against because of my colour. And we know that people do that certain organisations that are steeped in traditional. But one thing I do want to say that changing our thinking recruitment, and I know it's a long time since you've done it is John Lewis, John Lewis, because they have this was interesting, interesting, an article about a neurodivergent guy, but gone for interviews and interviews and interviews. And he's got over 30 years experience, but because he gets in a tizzy, when he's put in a situation of an interview, he said, he doesn't come across well, because it takes him a long time to warm up to the question. And to the interviewers are actually, you know, speaking to him, and he was basically on LinkedIn pleading for people to give them a chance, and what John Lewis are doing, they are sending out the questions for interviews before somebody comes in. So a journalist has said on the news the other day, but doesn't that mean, you're gonna have perfect answers to the questions? And they said, We're actually not what it means we can have a decent conversation. What do you think about that? Well, I

04:02

think it's trying to get beneath the skin of both parties. And the reality is, is that the candidate that gets the job is not always the best candidate is the candidate that performs best at the interview. So someone who is less confident, will suffer against that. And I think the reality is, is that people need to prepare themselves as much but the absence of these the spread of these sort of portals and whatever, make life very difficult. I was talking to a client about 12 months ago, and he said that they had a philosophy that they would recruit the best. And the best was often defined, as you've said, Tina, which university they went to, etc, etc. Yeah, but they'd always take as part of that intake, what they called the weird and wonderful types and therefore certain allocation These people weren't the most academic. But they've done some interesting things, you know, they may have sailed across the Atlantic, or they may have been helping out to a local charity, whatever it might be, but they were, they were different. And he said, during the last recession, they filtered out the weird and wonderful types and just went with the academic and said, actually, the quality of that intake was significantly impaired by the fact they didn't have a much wider target audience of candidates. Right.

05:31

It is interesting, isn't it? I mean, I do find it, I just find the whole thing interesting with recruiters. Because, I mean, I've been in situations myself, where, you know, you're getting an interview, you know, well, if you get to the interview, you get really nervous. And I just think the whole process, you know, and some, we know, there are some companies and we won't name them that are over the top, I think, but the whole process, you know, five, six interviews, I think when you're going for 150,000 pound plus job, be our guest because you're you know, you want that person to lead. But when you're talking lower positions, and you're still being stung, and going through five interviews, I just think it's totally unnecessary. Anyway, I could go on and on and on about recruitment. That was a long time ago in your life. But one thing I did pick up to Bollywood actor, that's right. You weren't gonna get away from me, I need to know what that was bad. Well,

06:21

I think a major part of my life journey was a backpacking year across Southeast Asia. And we lived on a very, very low budget, I think it was a pound a day that we lived on, and we stayed in some awful places. But a good place to stay. We like to wear the Salvation Army hospitals, the Salvation Army hostels were absolutely pristine, they were really, really neat and tidy and clean. So that's where we go. And of course, when we were in Bombay, which, of course is now Mumbai, what we learned was that Film City, the biggest film studios in the world, much bigger than Hollywood, Film City would come and recruit their extras from the Salvation Army hostels. So we'd be sitting around a group of us around a breakfast table, then someone will come in with a clipboard, and say, write what have you what have you, or take you and I played the parts of English Catholic priest, in a Bollywood movie.

07:19

I can't believe that. I actually can't believe that. And obviously, I mean, I'm going to come on to this a bit later, actually, with your travels and stuff. But what did you learn at that age about travelling and staying in crappy places, compared to what you do now?

07:34

I think, first of all, how adaptable the human condition is, yeah, so we started quite gently, we spent about five or six weeks picking grapefruit in Israel. And then from Israel, we flew to Greece, which is the only way we could get to that stage into India, and we landed in Calcutta. And it was such an overwhelming culture shock. And you can't experience India unless you experience the smells. And these are some fantastic smells, but also some pretty outrageous smells. And I remember when there was four of us, and we were in a taxi, and we didn't utter a word. You know, our jaws were dropped as we were observing this poverty and whatever. But within four or five days, we just got used to it. So to me, it was about adaptability. But also, I think the fact that the people we met on our travels, the people that have the least, were the most generous,

08:34

right. And I think I've always found that, and it always humbles me when I go to places where they don't have as much they're not a materialistic country like we are. And we've got a lot because I think the only time this country has been like that is during COVID, because you couldn't really spend money, you couldn't really go anywhere, and you had to live, you just have to live with what you had, really, because it was nothing to do. And I think when you travel, I always feel that those peaceful people have always got the biggest pot in the kitchen. They've always got food for you and stuff. And I know that you're still a bit of a modern day Phineas Falk. Jeff, where has that passion for travel come from?

09:09

I think probably going back to that trip I made in the backpacking years. I mean, prior to that, I had lots of holidays, but didn't really do much in the way of travel or so. And so I think that really opened my eyes and to me, it's the greatest education because you learn to look through the eyes of somebody else used to step into their shoes. And one thing which I used to find amusing, but quite instructive was that if we were travelling on a train and we always used to travel the lowest possible class, and we'd arrive at a station and there'd be all these people trying to sell you food and drink and they were what we called Chai wallets and the chai what those were people that serve tea but they serve them in ceramic that will cups and people will drink the tea and then they will throw this beautiful ceramic pot out The train will just break oh my goodness, except the train from Calcutta to medress at a time. And there, they had plastic cups. And someone came around afterwards, diligently picking up the plastic cups. Oh my goodness. Whereas obviously, from our point of view, we would value the ceramic bowl. Yeah, not the plastic, but it was the other way around. Funny, and also for a country, which is so squalid in places, banknotes have to be pristine, to be accepted. And I remember, yeah, I inherited a banknote, which was worth at the time about 10. Pence was what it was a one rupee notes. And the person who had it had folded into a quarter. And therefore there was a tiny hole, tiny hole in the middle of this note. And next time, I tried to buy some tea, I handed it to the chaiwala. He looked it up, hand it to me back. And for the next sort of month, it was my objective to try and get rid of this notes if I could. And we'd go into post offices we go into, everyone would hand it back, I remember being in my dress, and I said, Can I change this note, or you have to go to our headquarters, the headquarters was like 1000 miles away. So I came out of the bank, and I handed it to a beggar. And the beggar picked it up, look through the perforation and handed it me back.

11:23

He wouldn't take it either. Oh, my goodness,

11:27

whereas we used to notice that might be sellotape together or think something's written on them. But no, it had to be pristine. Isn't

11:32

that weird? So that was India. Yeah. What three places now on your bucket list? I know you've been to other countries and stuff. But if you said now, okay, I've got three places I really want to hit. Where are they?

11:45

But also good one. I'm, I've been to plenty. So therefore there are some people I would I would go back to. I'm a big fan of Australia or parts of Australia. I've been to the West Coast. I've been to the East Coast, South America. I haven't travelled apart from a trip to Venezuela. So more travelling South America. Yeah. And the trouble is, it is much more difficult these days to find pieces that are new pieces that haven't been discovered. So for example, when back in 1980, I bribed a fisherman to take me across to an island on the coast of Thailand called Koh Samui. And I returned to Koh Samui about five years ago with my family, and was completely gobsmacked. Yeah, about how it had changed. I mean, it's got an International Airport. Yeah, it's got all kinds of, it's just that. And I thought, how sad because what I saw was complete paradise. And that Paradise has been consumed by consumerism.

12:43

So you're a man that actually likes to go with the family or friends to places that almost untouched Is that Yeah.

12:51

2030 years ago, I could do that. Yeah. But now it's much more difficult to buy that.

12:56

And it's so funny when you say about customary because I've just booked a trip to Thailand with a friend at Christmas. And you know, when you go through so what I usually do, I take the travel agents on a little bit of a wild goose tour. So I did trailfinders, because I'd like to sort of hear about the itinerary they put together, then I'll just go independent and do it myself, or with the help of a booker post and really only came up from trailfinders. And I thought, no, it's so commercialised now, but I didn't want to go this, we bought these other little areas in Thailand, would you bleed up on this elephant trail up in the mountains to say in a lodge building, there are only three of them, that kind of stuff, and I can't wait. So that's really good. And it's interesting that what I was gonna say to you when you were doing your backpacking, did you emerge as a natural leader amongst your friends? Because it's interesting when I go away my friends, they say, oh, Tina, you're such a leader. You know what to do? It's not that I'm a very good event organiser. So I have everything sorted itineraries, what we're doing, and blah, blah, blah, what was it like with you, when you were travelling with your mates?

14:00

I was, I was a bit like that as well, in terms of knowing where to go. And certainly, we would always get the latest intelligence from people who had been travelling. And I thought what was interesting was that there were two questions. People always asked when I was travelling one was, how long have you been away? And if you said, You've been away three or four weeks, you've got no street cred at all. If someone said, I've been travelling for five years, you know, the, these were the top of the tree. So another question was, where's the best place you've been? Okay. And the most common answer was the South Island of New Zealand. And I'm yet to do that. I was in New Zealand, just before Christmas on the North Island, staying with some friends and my wife, but we will go back at some point to the south of Ireland switching

14:49

from travel because a lot of people but I'm hoping especially on the recruitment side, I think there's some people on here that gonna find that really interesting. I've got some friends at the moment going through a tough time. So I hope we've given some advice might be some top tips. I'll ask you right at the end around that. Let's fast forward to 2003. Well, it's not fast forwarding but it is from the traveller backpacking days for you, where you were to like five Woodward's I kind of did it in my introduction. So everybody that Jeff used to be the business manager for Sir Clive Woodward, who was the coach of the England rugby team in 2003. And I worked with them for Nike. And Jeff was working with Clive so how did you because I don't think I ever asked you this. How did you get to work with Clyde Woodward,

15:31

you mentioned, you know, I had the opportunity to interview a whole host of people. I was asked to interview Clive at an event, which must have been around about October November 2001. I think it was at that stage. The interview went well, I was delighted to get a Christmas card from from Clive note was there me know when are we going to get together? Oh, and I met up with him in his office and we had a chat and he asked me whether I would consider managing him. It was a very interesting then two or three years which took us right up to the Rugby World Cup final, you know, I got some insights in terms of what a high performance environment looks like. And certainly, I think a lot of people see Clive as a coach, Clive, I'd say he's much more of an architect, the architect of a high performance and environment. Quite rightly, he was very demanding of the RFU in terms of providing him with the best. And I think without, without that, I suppose that big picture view in terms of what performance look like without that, I don't think England would have necessarily triumphed in 2003. And

16:46

thinking about that performance then, since the Clive Do you think anybody's ever come close? And let's not be disingenuous to the cacti? I mean, there's loads of this. It's deep both with I can't keep up. Every time I switch on the game at the moment. It's changed again. So Steve Borthwick, but what do you think is missing now? From what went on way back then?

17:06

Well, I suppose I'm not close enough to give you I think, a considered response. I mean, certainly, at that time, there was a batch of players, or coming towards their peak, because of quite a large number retired straight after the world. Yeah, they did. So he had that. So I think it was the fact that he then hired specialist coaches. He hired a sports vision coach, he had a kicking coach, he had an offensive coaches, the eye coach powder. That's right. So so he surrounded himself with the best in their fields. And he was able to, it says, Get that that group to collaborate towards this one common objective. Yeah.

17:50

I mean, I wonder if England will ever win it again. But in in our lifetime, I'm not sure they get close. But then I don't know something kind of doesn't seem so right. And maybe if you say, it's that the people that you had around them, then I mean, who would have thought Cheryl called a doctor show called or I should say, came in as the only coach. And when people said to me, when I spoke to them about my experiences as the only coach here, this coach, what's the only coach go? Well, look at Jonny Wilkinson, for example. He was out there kicking every single morning when we were in camp, and Cheryl was out there with him. And I don't think they've ever had anything like that. I mean, I don't think she stayed on that long after that, when

18:31

well, that's right. I think that's where Clive, I think felt undermined by the RFU because I don't think they had an appetite for retaining an eye coach. But the irony was, she then went back to South Africa, and she won the Rugby World Cup four years later on the on the backroom staff of this African team.

18:50

Exactly. It's so funny. So yeah, I think if you pull your head out and have a look at what makes a good team, because it's not just the coach. So were you a part of that? And how long were you as business manager for? I mean, we were you when you say as business manager? Was it just around the Rugby World Cup? Or was it all

19:07

disappears? It was all of his business affairs for a period of about four years,

19:11

right? Because what I'm trying to do, because obviously, you're you've been an expert in recruitment, every everything. And I've toyed with it before, because I'd be someone's business manager because I'm highly organised. And what's it involved to be someone's personal manager or business manager?

19:24

I think it depends on the relationship. So I would say that relationship will probably vary quite considerably. I mean, certainly, I had nothing to do with the rugby team at whatsoever. And then therefore, people often say, Oh, well, you know, Jeff, what, what did you do and we'll give you the credit, I deserve no credit at all for how well the rugby team, I suppose it was. The reality was was that he was in demand. He had a very, very hectic diary. It was trying to, in a sense, manage that workload. So it didn't interfere on the rugby field. And that was you know, a client's prime focus was very much the team. And essentially, maybe I removed some of the distractions that he might have had had he not had a business manager. What's

20:10

interesting about that, what a lot of people listening them might say, so is that the same as an agent? I talked to you obviously the other day about somebody that I'm going to try and go after I sent her a note, by the way, you'll be pleased to hear this morning, email bounce back, because it's been so long. So I've just gone through Twitter on Instagram. And when you see, you know, Saatchi and Saatchi contact this but I really hope she gets back to me because I'm not going through, you know, an agent like Versace, Versace or whatever. Is that what you sort of were doing effectively, rather than these bigger groups of people? Yeah, I'd actually quite like to do that, Jeff, actually, because I'm so organised. And it's almost like, you know, personal assistant or personal manager or whatever you want to call it, somebody. I'm actually really love it. But then you say that, and if you get someone who's awful and demanding, it could be a bit a bit of a nightmare. you juggle all of that, around that time, you were a more mature father at 47 years old. That's right. How did you then take all of that into managing? I think it was a new wife? And what what did that grow up for you because you were busy. You're busy man.

21:13

Well, it goes back to this thing about the adaptability of the human condition. So yeah, my wife and I hadn't been seeing each other for that long. So it came as a bit of a surprise when she announced our pregnancy. My daughter is what is working in the next room? Because she's working from home today. Yes, she's not 24. Yeah. So yeah, so so it was about a change. And I realised that if you're going to be a proper father, then the kids and family have to come first. So within a couple of months after she was born, I literally quit corporate life. And, and I quit corporate life, to be a business speaker. And it was about that time that that Clive approached me. So I had to balance if you like managing his business affairs, but the same time trying to develop my own, because and in a sense, it created a bit of confusion. And there was, you know, certain speaking agencies, that you know, that they would not consider me at all for speaking position, because they thought oh, he's Clive's a business manager. So it's trying to actually overcome that. So that probably held me back to start with, but maybe propelled me forward. Further on.

22:33

So hang on a minute, you went from corporate life, and you just said, I want to release business speaking? How did you know you to become a business speaker? What gave you that confidence? Now I can go out there and speak about business? Well, you're making it sound very easy, very easy, Jeff. Well,

22:47

it's anything but particularly to get started. Yeah. But I had a very good friend suddenly died a couple of years ago, who was head of leadership development within Unilever. And Terry would often book external speakers. I told him that I was going to give up corporate life, I told him what my intention was. And he said, Come round. And we'll have a bottle of wine. And he had, he had a video. So again, going back over the other video of 33 minute clips of different speakers, right. So for an hour and a half, we sat drinking a bottle of wine, looking at all these little snippets of Speeches, speeches, and he was a scouser. And at the end of of that, he said, Let me tell you something. There are 10 people on that video, who I think are currently better than you. There are 10 people, I think you match, no problem. And I think there's 10 people, you're better than those. So that was the first introduction. And I then started speaking to speaking agencies, and they said, No, have you wrote the Atlantic? I said, No. Have you? Have you climbed Everest? No. So what are you going to talk about? And I said, Well, I can talk about recruitment. And I can talk about leadership. And he said, Well, what Why could you talk about leadership? I said, Well, I grew a business from a dozen people, to 360 people, and I led it in that journey. So few were sceptical, and I remember going to see a chap and he's also money looking for. I didn't have a clue. So I said, Turn 500 pounds that no one would take you seriously, if you were going to charge 500 pounds, right? What do you mean? He said, I said, the 500 be fine. I'm starting out. He said, No, the minimum you should charge is two and a half 1000 pounds. I said 40 minutes? He said yep. And unless, unless people you know, if they don't think that you're good enough, they will do that partly because of the fee that you're proposing. And then he suggested I made up a show reel, video show reel, which I did have me speaking of various places and I gave him the show reel. I sent him the show reel. And I said, Have you seen it? No, I haven't looked at it yet. He said, But what Mark, would you give yourself on that show reel that you sent? And that's it. I think they did a pretty good job. I said, I'd say eight out of 10. He said, in that case, I'm not gonna watch it. There's so many a show reel when the show reels 10 out of 10. Wow, watch it. And then forget about your CV, send your 10 out of 10 show reel to all the speaking agencies.

25:26

Oh, my God. If people could see me now, obviously, you know, this podcast is audio only. But I'm sitting here because it's like I'm having a private tuition less than with Jeff, because this information is really important. Because, you know, when people are asking you what you think of yourself, and I had a conversation with Jeff the other day, and he asked me some pretty punchy, but not really punchy. But I really came away from meeting him feeling that I've still got work to do. And I think one of the things is when you feel that you've failed, you have to get up and keep going. And I've just been reading an article in the book about this as well about not saying that you failed yet. But you gave yourself an eight out of 10. And then this guy said, we're not gonna listen to it. You see, somebody says to me, we think, Oh, my God, what's your and I would have taken it to heart and sat on it. But you went back. And now you are a successful speaker. I think for me, it would be really nice to understand when you went from that, and you did the show real. You went back to the guy said, I'm a 10 out of 10 you host and deliver keynote speeches, how do you prepare for them

26:27

are doing lots of research, and it would be almost like an iceberg. What you see on the surface is very different what you see underneath. So I do lots of research in as Mattia, if someone in passing mentions a name, I want to I want to be able to name check that person. So lots of research in terms of sitting down with some very high profile people, some are a bit more precious than others. Some want to know, you know, what questions you're going to ask, and I can't possibly give them the questions. But what I do, do I give them the first question. So I give them the first question. And then I ask the question, is there anything you won't talk about? And, you know, one or two people will say, you can, you can ask me anything. Others will say, I don't want to talk about my recent divorce, I don't want to talk about the collapse of my company. She's right. And I will always respect that. Yeah,

27:21

and I've done the cardinal sin listeners by not sending Jeff an outline what I was gonna ask him because he might not want to spoken about spam. It's funny, I completely forgot to send it to you. But it's so important to do that. So when you're on stage, doing it live, what gives you a buzz, when you're on there? What fuels you,

27:38

I started getting nervous, about 10 minutes before, right? Okay. And I feel it was like a vibration. It's the butterflies in the stomach, that sort of vibration, and then two to three minutes in, all those butterflies start flying in formation. And it all goes smooth. And then from that point on, I'm enjoying myself, okay, if I'm conducting an interview, I am listening so carefully to what is said, how it said, what's not said. So I can follow up effectively. And to me, it's not about the opening question. It's always the follow up question is where there's, you get much more insight in terms of the person. And

28:21

it's funny you say that, because I want to ask you, because I think it'd be quite interesting, then those who are not quite into business and who have been avid followers of my, who are some of the top speakers that you have interviewed Jeff, that you really enjoyed, because they've been open, they're getting some funny anecdotes. And you know, they've just been a pleasure. Who would you say that people will recognise?

28:43

I think, what one thing that's important, I think, in terms of being a speaker, it's not just what you do on stage. It's your, your behaviour before and afterwards. So I always get up, get back there very, quite a considerable time in front of the presentation in order to relax the person that I'm actually there. Because sometimes there are people looking at what is the speaker isn't here yet? What are we going to do? So I always get there with plenty of time and say, Look, I'm here, I'll keep out of your way. Let me have a cup of tea or something, and then call me when you need me. And again afterwards, if people want to meet to hang out around to speak to some of their clients, or whatever it might be, then I'll do that. So therefore, I want to be as easy to deal with as possible. And I would say, the majority of the people that I've interviewed have been pretty easy, pretty accommodating. There are two or three that were difficult, some more difficult than others, but I'd say the people that stood out interviewing an Apollo astronaut, Charles Duke from Apollo 16 and shaking the hands of someone that stood on another planet, you know, that gives you a fresh of excitement.

29:51

Did he talk about what it was like to go through the training at NASA and stuff? Well,

29:54

we folk we focus a lot on what happened afterwards. Okay, guys, When he returned to Earth, he's fated like a movie star or a rock star. Yeah, he found it very, very difficult to cope, really. And his personal life collapsed really, for some time until he was able to rebuild it. And he did that largely through religion. It wasn't particularly religious beforehand, but he became so afterwards.

30:22

And is it because people become public property effectively, Jeff, that they clap so much, you know, we look at our star celebrities and whatever their public property and the bubbles, come back, burst or come down to earth, that's when the shit really happens. Right?

30:36

That's right, he became a drunk for a while. I mean, it had a major, major negative impact. And he said, the one thing that really NASA should do to improve is to prepare people, for the homecoming of the earth coming as it were.

30:49

And it's a little bit like sports men and women, when you finish your sport, when you come out of professional sport, as you and I know, I know that yes, I was an international, but I actually didn't know what to do with myself. When I said I was retiring at 31. It was almost like this massive void was in my life, because my whole life was centred around training, being around the same people. I think it's better now. But it's still a lot of work to be done. And it sounds like this is the same with this. This guy.

31:15

Absolutely. Looking at, you know, some of the rugby players from 2003. Some have made a very, very good transition into if you like a new life. Others had some struggles.

31:28

Yeah, definitely. So that was the astronaut. Jeff, who else have you interviewed, it's been interesting.

31:35

A woman who I met at Royal Holloway College, London University, my name is Sophie. And I'm I've in the past been invited to present on speech day, whereby typically I would award the best degree certificate, and then conduct an interview on stage with the recipient. This particular year, I got a call from the Dean saying In view of Sofia's speech defect, we don't think an interview will work. I'll give you some background. Sophie Christiansen had cerebral palsy. She couldn't hold a pen in her finger. She can only drink through a straw and her speech was so terribly slurred. She sounded like she was inebriated. Right. So, but what he said was, could you ask her one question? She was wheeled on the stage in her wheelchair. I presented her with a degree certificate. I said to her, I said, Sophie, you're a young woman with plenty stacked against you. Why have you been so successful? Right? And she reflected for a few moments. And she replied, success in anything comes down to a decision, a decision to commit and I immediately thought that word has a certain degree of of weight and gravitas about it. But six weeks later, she won three Paralympic gold medals in London 2012 Because she was prepared to commit.

32:57

I love that story. I love that one. Really good. I guess she's retired now. Right? Was that a long time?

33:03

She went on to the Rio Olympics. And one, two more. Two more. A little bit of it. And I think she I think she went to Japan.

33:10

Okay. Okay. Fantastic. And then one more another person, one more person positive or negative? I reckon we go for negative.

33:18

Okay. Well, there was one person very high profile. I probably won't say anything on there just in case it Mac back. Well, the person I didn't like because now passed on. Was the film director Michael Weiner. Right. And he was just very, very, very difficult to deal with. Yeah, noticed. In an entry there was something in some magazine, whatever saying that his hobby is to be being difficult. It was someone it was just difficult. So

33:48

yeah, it was absolutely vile, then it was unpleasant. Interesting. Do you know who might love it? If you'd have interviewed this is back to the you and I our commonality with the 2003 World Cup will be Mike Tyndall. And the reason why I say that, because when we were out in the World Cup, and I remember it was the night where they won, and everybody's going out their wives and everything. And if I remember correctly, Mike was one of the few people that didn't go out. And the reason why he was already dating, he was already dating Azara at the time, but imagine going from the boy next door, which obviously none of them are boys next door. But then to be in the royal family is quite something for Mike. I think he had been interesting, but then maybe it wasn't but then I've seen some interviews where I think he's been really down to earth. You know, I don't know what you think. Have you seen anything

34:36

that's the attraction of it is it is a member of the royal family who's down to earth, just like she is. I never met him myself. I met lovely other players, but he always seemed very easygoing.

34:48

And who was your favourite player? By the way in that squad,

34:51

the person I know best and is very, very likeable indeed. It's Jason Leonard.

34:57

I know you're gonna say Chase and he was one of my And I say that everybody, he was one of my athletes that I looked after. And Jason was just again down to earth. He was like the boy next door completely different to like Lawrence than I do, for example. And Jason was just lovely. Really, really nice. I'll tell you who else was nice was Phil Vickery. I didn't make sure you didn't really You didn't meet Phil, Phil was Gloucester. And he then went on to do a lot of cooking and stuff. And he was he was really nice. He is one of mine. But anyway, moving off rugby, you are known for your vivid anecdotes? Where do you get them from?

35:33

Well, I think if you're going to be a successful speaker, then you must have a reservoir of stories, because what makes a good speech, other stories and people, people remember stories. And consequently, that whole narrative you're creating then and neuroscience has shown that the human brain recognises the shape of a story. And once the brain recognise the shape of the story, one people will listen more carefully. And secondly, people are more likely to remember what's been said. So if you want to have lasting impact, you tell stories. And certainly when I started out, I wasn't immediately conscious of that. But what I realised you could actually looking out at the audience, you can see the audience almost tune in more carefully, once you go into a story. And the way I look at it is that every key point that you make, and I call the key points, the macro messages, those macro messages have to be supported by a micro message. And the micro message is a story. And

36:36

it's funny, because if I think of all the good speakers I've ever listened to, it will be their stories, I remember more than what I remember about them, and really tuning into the audience. So if something's not working, you need to move on. So what advice? No, I'll give you example. Yes, please. I'd

36:50

love that. Actually, I would say the the story has to be driven by the point that you're trying to make. So let's say the point I'm trying to make is that to be an effective leader, you need to know your people. You need to understand them. Yeah. So that's, that's my macro message. And you might say, Yeah, that sounds about right. So I need now a story to underpin it. And I'll tell you, I'll tell it as I would do as part of the speech. Yeah. Field Marshal Lord Inge was a very senior military man, Lord in and she was head of the British Army until he got promoted. And from 1992 to 1996. He was Chief of the General Staff, the most senior military man in Britain. On graduating from the military academy Santos, he was immediately sent to Hong Kong to take charge of a platoon of 33 men. He'd been in Hong Kong for about two or three weeks, and out of the blue, he received an invitation from his sergeant to join him for a drink. In the sergeant's mess. The young officer was rather surprised by this, he goes along and he finds that his sergeant is in full regimental uniform. He invites the young officer to sit down, he offers him a drink. And he said, Sir, I noticed that when you inspect the men, you pay meticulous attention to how they're turned out. When you walk along the line of the soldiers, I noticed you take fix special attention to the cap patch, the shine on their belt buckle the polish of their boots. And sir, the men have never been so well turned out. But sir, I noticed that when you inspect the men, you never look at your men in the eyes. And it's important, you get to know those 32 sets of eyes as quickly as possible. Because if you look at your mind, in the eyes, it will tell you whether being bullied. If you look at your men in the eyes, it will tell you that they have a drink problem. If you look at your men in the eyes, it will tell you that they have a problem with their partner. And sir, is most important you look them in the eyes when you take them into battle. And the officer said, What did you tell me this from the beginning? And he said, had I told you from the beginning, sir. You the forgotten, sir. But now, sir, you will never ever forget. So that's a true story. It was a story told to me by Lord, Lord Inge, but I need that to make you remember the point because obviously, it's a metaphor, looking at people's eyes as a metaphor for how well

39:17

you've known them. Love that, Jeff, I'm gonna remember that. Not that I do lots of public speaking, but I might try and get into it now. But um, you know, you are an incredible public speaker. And there's, you know, there's a couple of friends I'm gonna pass this podcast episode on TV. But what has been your biggest fuckup?

39:34

What about that? I think oh, I probably should have set up my own recruitment business. Okay, which I didn't I mean, I certainly was the the UK MD But I hadn't found it. So that's maybe something I should have done. I suspect there are a couple of girlfriends that maybe I shouldn't have. I should have stayed with very

39:50

well. And then with public speaking specifically, what would you what do you think your biggest fuckup has been with public speaking? It's never been a fact that you've got wrong or you've been that much keenness that you'd never get back from.

40:01

It's strange, you can feel the mood of an audience. Definitely. Yeah, I don't think I've had a complete fuckup by any means. But I think I've had sessions that didn't go as well. Yeah, of course, you try, and you try and analyse it. And sometimes it's the audience, just the makeup of the audience. Because again, you need to make sure that the stories you're using the anecdotes relate to the audience. Yeah. So is it mainly a male audience? Is it a younger audience or a more mature audience? Is it an audience of sales and marketing people? Or is it an audience of accountants, so all of those things you have to take into account. But the important thing is that you engage the audience within those first two or three minutes. And the reality is, at that point in time, they're trying to make up their mind very quickly. Is this person worth listening to? Totally,

40:55

totally, totally, totally, totally, I think you should, I think you should do some work on presentation skills with a lot of leaders, Jeff, because the amount of places that I've been taught worked in and you get these leaders that stand up, and you just think, oh, my gosh, I'd rather slit my own throat. I, you know, it's really sad, because when they're trying to, you know, motivate teams, and whatever, and you just think their presentation is so awful, I think we have to accept that not everybody is going to present well, but you have to do the best you can and then find a style that's going to suit you whether you're on there for five or 10 minutes, or whatever it is.

41:27

But it's funny, you say that, because nowadays, lots of leaders come to me to say, I've got a really important presentation to do. Can we work on it together? And sometimes I think groups of leaders, because if many people it's their biggest fear, yes. And secondly, it's not just that speech, you might need to give to the Annual General Meeting, it may well be a wedding speech. It's another situation where being able to get a message across, or being able to inspire or motivate is very, very important.

41:58

It's funny, isn't it? Because I was watching this trashy reality show, which I won't bore you with details. And I thought about wedding speeches, which must be the most traumatic experience of your life, if you're not someone who lives in the public eye, because you're completely on display for the whole day. And then when you have to stand up and probably say something, it must be, you know, really, really quite scary. But obviously, you say a lot, Jeff, and you're brilliant, but also you write a lot. So you're the author of eight books, no less. What inspired you to write a book?

42:30

Well, the first the first thing when I started interviewing it like business celebrities, and I thought, well, it's a shame that we haven't been able to capture that. So I quickly had them recorded. So we recorded lots of and I thought, What am I going to do with all these tapes, and then I spoke to a publisher, and they said that we think there'll be some demand. So the first book I did was a book on entrepreneurs and entrepreneurship called the Adventure Capitalists, right. And that that went down well, and I did a follow up version of that called my brilliant career, which again, looked at the successful careers of people from very different backgrounds and different walks of life. So that's how I got into that. And then when I started speaking to speaking agencies, the question I often had for them, What's your most in demand topic? Right? And going back when I started this 25 years ago, the most in demand copy was leadership. So I thought, right, okay, I gotta write a leadership book. And then realise I didn't have a lot of that anyway, to fill a book. Yeah. So I approached a number of people, some of them I'd interviewed before, but Can I interview you again? And some said, Yes. Some said, No. So the first book, I ended up with 17 people from support the military from business. And I said, Can I have two hours of your time, and I interviewed them. And then we created from that book, and I emphasis emphasise the word we, because whilst all of the books are my ideas, or the books or my structure, most of the writing is done with a co writer, who's always on the front cover of the book along with my name. So they get they get joint billing. So is

44:09

that an easier way for some people who want to go I know, a couple of people at the moment, I think I mentioned to you who want to write a book, is that a good way to do it, where they have the framework? And then they find somebody who can write for them effectively? Is that a good way to get maybe you're thinking it depends on one,

44:25

how good a writer you are. So I'm a pretty reasonable writer. But I'm very, very slow, very slow to get what I want. And I'm too busy to devote too much time to writing. Whereas if I get me to start as a professional, who does it, and these are all journalists that I know. And you give them a deadline, they'll hit it, no problem. So that's how I've done it. And to be honest, it's proved much more lucrative to my co authors. Because whatever advance I get, I pay it to them directly. If I say, if we get to that point when I start exceeding that, then either start earning but otherwise not.

45:07

Okay. Well, I want to hear about, you know, you've written eight books. And I think you mentioned to me that your last one was murder without motive, which was about your dad, sadly, who has passed now, but can you tell us a little bit about that? Because I love a murder mystery. And as you know that I interviewed a superintendent and was in the Met. So I'm quite interested to hear a little bit a bit about your father and tell our listeners about him and how you came about doing that book? Well,

45:33

I suppose it's there's two stories, really, there's the story of the book. And then there's the story of writing the book, taking this letter. First, my wife and I are at my parents, and my parents were quite elderly at that stage. And my wife soon displays any boredom. And I could tell that she's, you know, wasn't really interested in the hospital visits and the funerals. They'd been to various other bits and pieces. Once there was a gap in the conversation. My wife said to my dad, come on, Phil, tell me about one of your cases. And my dad was quite a senior police officer, he was a detective, Chief Superintendent of Scotland Yard, and he was on major cases like The Great Train Robbery, the Hanratty case, the Profumo Affair, and I thought he would tell one of those stories. But he told the story of his first murder case, before he was the youngest of three detectives, and I was a bit jealous, really, I thought he's never told me. And he told the story. My wife was enthralled by this and driving home, she couldn't help but talk about this book. And what happened in this industry? Yes. So that was that, sadly, my dad passed away about three months later, and my brother and I had the task to sort out his personal effects. And I opened a drawer and in the drawer, there was an envelope full of material and information relating to this murder, witness statements, police reports, forensic reports, and 19 gruesome scene of crime photos,

47:02

I don't even want to think.

47:03

So. I don't really know what to do with them. And then we sort of hit them away. And then my publisher, about a year later said, What are you going to write about next, with all my books had been around business recruitment, performance? And I said, I might do a book on my dad's that's not the case. Right. So I recruited a co author, and recruited a researcher. And I recruited a a former murder detective from Scotland Yard. And we embarked on a bit about a year a one year project. And we had a big launch event at the Royal Festival Hall, I invited loads of people. And it was just a fantastic journey

47:48

to honour your dad. Really lovely Jeff. I mean, it's really nice. And yeah, I'd be looking down thinking, thanks, John, you wrote about that. I love it. And I think this really embodies us as an entrepreneur. What advice would you give to people who want to go on an entrepreneurial journey, but seems to be just have this sticking block? What three tips would you give them?

48:12

I think, firstly, is it's quite good to frighten yourself occasionally, whether it be interviewing someone in public whether it wasn't but if you know that this voice, which says, No, you can't, you need to cancel it out with

48:26

yes, you can face the fear and do it anyway. That kind of Yeah. And I remember my first

48:30

boss I ever had, I was because it might create them starting recruitment, my career started in local government. I was in local government town planner, and it was just excellent in terms of when when I made cock ups, and of course, early in your career, you made a huge number of cookouts you would never chide me for it. And he always say, so what have you learned? So he was he was just a lovely guy, and I couldn't have had a better person. And his whole thing was yes, you can, Jeff. Yes, you can. And at times when I think, oh, blimey, I have this voice in my head that says, yes, you can. So the first thing I think, is overcoming that stumbling block, because many people the first hurdle is no, you can't say you have to overcome that. And then what do you know about it? What what knowledge do you have? And therefore, can you acquire that knowledge? And can you contact various people? And will they help you? So for example, when Clive asked me to manage him, I thought, Who do I know in that sort of Sports Management Area? And of course, very, very few people. But I had interviewed a few years beforehand, very hand we associate with, with snooker and with boxing or whatever. Yeah, I phoned him up. And I said, I don't suppose you meet me for coffee. I need to learn about your world as it were. And he was very, very generous in terms of his time, very, very generous in terms of its advice, and you've got to be prepared to knock on plenty of doors because you know, So for example, my first book, real leadership book 17, leaders, probably 35 leaders said, bugger off by so you have to play the numbers game and therefore don't be disheartened. If someone says no, because the next person may well say yes,

50:16

yeah, no, I totally agree with that. And I think I spoke to you when I saw you about a certain shift that hopefully I would, you know, do some work. And I've been looking, I've been looking, I've been looking. And, you know, I prepared for that meeting. It didn't actually take place, and I hope it will be rescheduled. But I don't see somebody who's been in restaurant management, very high level and has invested. But I think sort of finally to sort of close this because it's been really interesting. you state your incurably curious and boringly reliable. What does that mean to you? Well, first of all, if

50:47

I say I'm going to do something, I always do. Oh, I don't forget. So for example, I remember in the past, we might have been on holiday. And the kids were younger, the kids were playing other people's kids. And I take a photograph of them with other kids. And the mother might say to me, Oh, could you send me a copy of the photograph? And I say, of course I will. Or my wife will say he will, you know, he's never ever forgotten. Because what I would do immediately, then, because I would feel so bad for letting them down. I immediately leave the swimming pool, whatever. I go back to the bedroom, I get my diary out. For two or three days after I get back, I'd write down send photograph to that's what I would do the same. So, so, so boring and reliable. So therefore, as if you say, I'm gonna do something, I will do it. And then curious, I'm just, I'm just curious to find stuff out. I mean, you know, I'm 71 Coming up 72. But I'm just as interested in new stuff as I was 50 years ago. So being just curious. Fantastic.

51:52

You better keep in touch me, Jeff, I'll tell you that much. Final question, three defining moments that have shaped your life. And the lessons that have been learned the defining

52:02

moments, I think the first one would be having kids having an there's something about their fighter and seeing through their eyes. I mean, I met with my little girl, she must have been one of them something just sitting on the top deck, front seats of a double decker bus. And I'm just thinking, prior to that, you know, I've been taking taxes and stuff like that, I thought, that is a really great place to see the world at the top of a double decker bus. It's really good. So so that was part of our kids. What else? I think just the kindness of being in a very, very poor person's village hut and the generosity and just thinking this, this is fantastic. This this moment where people are sharing and and you're talking to people from different backgrounds and different ideas and that Yeah,

52:54

exactly. One more. Anything else?

52:56

I think so. I think it's timely. Good question, but I think you stopped me.

52:59

No problem, no problem at all. Well, listen, Jeff, it's been absolutely really insightful to speak to you. I'll keep you posted on people who learn from this guy. I think there will be a lot of people who will listen in to this one and take some really good lessons from it. I think you're off to Antarctica soon.

53:15

We're off to the Arctic as of a week tomorrow.

53:18

We'll have a fantastic time and hopefully you'll join me for another bevvy at some point in London. Sounds good. Okay.